tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8132410343235772418.post8474842419033821644..comments2023-10-01T03:05:01.291-07:00Comments on GAY MYSTIC: Martyrs of Disobedience for the Faith, Ludmila Javorova, Father Roy Bourgeois and Franz JagerstatterUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8132410343235772418.post-66712068076120737232011-04-10T10:29:52.948-07:002011-04-10T10:29:52.948-07:00I had the same thought, Colleen, two generations! ...I had the same thought, Colleen, two generations! There will be nobody left, and certainly women will not wait that long. Schoenherr is following the classical sociological model for change within religious institutions and it's quite a profound study. He does mention that there will be break away groups impatient with the slow process of transformation. But I feel he does not take sufficient account of the profound mutations the church is now facing and will face in the future (the study was published in 1995, but there has been nothing quite like it since, which makes it still worth reading). Mutations having to do with authority and the very sacerdotal mystery he rightly cherishes. I don't know what the future will bring, but it seems certain the boundary lines are dissolving and we will not simply have 'the same sacerdotal structure' in place, except for the inclusion of women and married priests. I think what is coming is far more profound than this, with the boundaries becoming more fluid as to who may validly celebrate the Eucharist and when and where. The sacerdotal minister will not disappear at formal celebrations of the 'whole church' in a particular region, but more and more freedom will be given to ordinary Christians to 'break bread' together in a sacerdotal manner among themselves in small familiar groups. And the Risen Lord will be amongst them in the breaking of the bread.Richard Demmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116799651068476195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8132410343235772418.post-74150667394152053202011-04-10T06:45:43.161-07:002011-04-10T06:45:43.161-07:00Fr Schoenherr is very optimistic about the continu...Fr Schoenherr is very optimistic about the continued existence of the Church. If his time table holds true, there won't be much of any kind of Church in Europe and much of North America.<br /><br />Demographically, he's projecting these changes to occur with in two to three generations, but the fact is the Church has already lost much of the current younger generations, and by extension all their progeny. This does not bode well for a clerical caste of any sort.<br /><br />Great article Jayden. What an act of obedience on the part of Ludmila Javorova. There's a part of me that hopes she only gave up the public part of her priesthood and that she continues to say Mass privately. Hers is a unique energy with in Catholicism.<br /><br />As for Fr. Roy, I have no respect left for Maryknoll. They certainly took care of enough pedophile priests of theirs, but Roy gets kicked out and to the curb. This is so unjust it makes me want to puke.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8132410343235772418.post-21870955612930155512011-04-09T23:41:07.065-07:002011-04-09T23:41:07.065-07:00Terence - I'm just now reading Richard Schoenh...Terence - I'm just now reading Richard Schoenherr's very rich sociological/theological study of the priesthood, Goodbye Father, in which he argues most persuasively just this point. The church's profound sense of 'sacerdotal priesthood' is what is slowing the process of change - both in the sense of caution in initiating change in something so sacred at the core of belief and more pertinently in the sense of contributing to the attachment to the role on the part of the male clerical caste which doesn't want to give up such sacred power. Contrary to those who argue that simply admitting women and married priests to the priesthood (or partnered gays) will only contribute to the continuation of the clerical caste, he optimistically predicts that this opening will help to heal sexism in the church. He predicts that married priests will have to come within a generation, women priests several generations(I hope not so long). So the individuals in my posting are truly ahead of their times, but the grace of their own 'martyrdom' for the church is already being felt. Still...sigh...there are times when one wishes things didn't always have to be so difficult.Richard Demmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116799651068476195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8132410343235772418.post-65515082304048583652011-04-09T16:05:01.310-07:002011-04-09T16:05:01.310-07:00Thanks for the pointer to the Tablet, Jayden, and ...Thanks for the pointer to the Tablet, Jayden, and for your additional material. You are absolutely correct to call these people martyrs - or those who bear witness - as that is what they are: witnesses martyred not for the Church, but by the Church, and for the faith.<br /><br />Heresy, they say, is often a matter of timing. For these people, the time has not yet come, but it will - and they too will be honoured when the rest of the Catholic Church finally comes to its senses, as the other denominations have already done.Terence Weldonhttp://queeringthechurch.comnoreply@blogger.com